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Would You Sign with us again Joe?
Now that Columbia is in for a new coaching staff, the question is whether any of the potential impact players who have left the team over the last year or so might return.
There is a long history of this scenario working out well for the Lions.
Perhaps the best example occurred in 2003, when RB Ayo Oluwole returned to the team when Bob Shoop took over as head coach from Ray Tellier.
All Oluwole did that year was lead the team in rushing with 903 yards and five TD's. Incidentally, no Columbia rusher has come close to matching that 903 yard mark since.
Two players in particular should be on every Lion fan's wish list as we hope for even more talent to come in for 2012.
First is DL/OL Joe Raimondi, who left the team just before this season. Raimondi impressed as a freshman on the offensive line as a frosh in 2010, and then he was switched to the O-line in the spring. Perhaps he will jump at the chance to return, especially if he can get back to the defensive side exclusively.
TE Chris Mooney impressed a lot of coaches and teammates with his abilities as a freshman, but was off the roster before the spring of this year. With sophomore Hamilton Garner excelling at the position this year, Mooney's loss didn't sting as badly as we thought it might. But getting him back on the squad would be a plus if he is so inclined.
Greg Toal yesterday
Toal's Road
Possible Columbia head coaching candidate Greg Toal and his Don Bosco Ironmen crushed St. Joseph 41-0 yesterday to clinch a spot in the state championship game.
Toal's high standards became evident in the early stages of the 2nd half, according to this account of the game by MaxPreps:
With a No. 1 ranking comes an expectation for four quarters of dominance, though, and the Ironmen looked uninspired coming out of the locker room after intermission. Shumate admitted "we felt like we already had the win," although head coach Toal, ever the perfectionist, saw his players loafing while running pass patterns and missing blocks – mistakes uncharacteristic for one of his teams.
Hearing the wrath of Toal and his coaching staff helped inspire the Ironmen again. After their second three-and-out of the third quarter, Peppers plunged in for his third 1-yard touchdown to cap a powerful, albeit methodical, 7-play, 22-yard drive.
Bosco's championship game against Bergen Catholic is at MetLife Stadium in the Meadowlands a week from tonight.
Jim Margraff
Margraff's Moment?
Former Columbia assistant coach and current Johns Hopkins Head Coach Jim Margraff is also considered to be one of the candidates for the top Lions job.
Margraff may have an ace in the hole as he is still close to his former boss, Ray Tellier, who is making the final hiring decision along with athletic director Dianne Murphy.
Until Tellier was named in the official press release as being such a crucial player in the process, I wasn't sure Margraff could be called a leading contender. And I am still not sure he is even interested in leaving Maryland to return to New York.
But if he does want this job he certainly has the best ally he can get on the very highest of levels.
posted by Jake @ 11:16:00 PM
49 comments
49 Comments:
Are Raimondi and Mooney still at Columbia. or did they transfer?
Interesting article in latest Spectator. The reporter spoke to players and the six he quoted raved about Wilson as a motivator, mentor, leader, friend.
There's no mention of his coaching ability or if the reporter asked the players about that issue.
The impression I get from it is that Wilson is a fine man. Unanswered is whether he can't coach well enough, the players can't play well enough, or a combination of both. The story states the won-lost record and lets that speak for itself.
There's no question Toal has had an outstanding career at Don Bosco, but you can't overlook the difference between high school and college programs, and even among the various divisions. A case in point is Williams, which has had almost as much success as Don Bosco over the years. But at least two highly successful Eph coaches have bombed out in the Ivy League -- Bob Odell at Penn (after a winning the Lambert Cup as the top college division team in the East at Bucknell and before a strong run at Williams)and Frank Navarro at Columbia and (after a successful tenure at D2 Wabash) at Princeton. That's not to say they won't or can't do well in the Ivy League -- just look at Penn's Al Bagnoli, who came from Union -- but it's a different world.
If the "coach picking gods" are listening...PLEASE do not pick a high school coach! This team deserves more than that. Give them the oppurtunity to play for a coach with college coaching experience. Who has a winning record,don't take a chance on a high school guy. Hire someone that is well known, who turns programs around. It is time to start thinking about what the team wants, put them first.Not someone with a good HS record who YOU think MIGHT do a good job.
I am pretty sure our players would not be too excited to play for a high school guy, no matter what his record is. It's not college.
The reality is that it is very difficult to predict who will succeed where as a head coach or there wouldn't be so many coaches at all levels being replaced.
It's been suggested that the three most important things a head football coach needs to do is choose the right assistants, recruit and inspire. He also obviously has to be good at game-time tactics and strategy. Those tasks require a very diverse set of skills and talents, which may explain why it's so hard to predict who will secceed at what level. Then there is also being able to understand and adapt to the idiosyncracies of each school/team.
I don't know whether Toal would succeed in college, but he has a lot of positives that intrigue, including that he's been successful not just at Don Bosco but at every school at which he's coached, which has included a very diverse set of schools (Catholic, urban, suburban and national all star). He has as a parent gone through the high stakes recruiting process several times. He has national h.s. contacts, reputation and and respect.
-Dr.V
Once again, to change the subject slightly - this is the campus culture at Columbia:
The author of this article was a spec editor, and he qualifies as a Columbia "sports fan":
http://deadspin.com/5862549/high-school-reunion-horror-stories-magical-mystery-reunion
Until these types of lowlifes are vetted out by admissions, our campus culture will continue to be dominated by a cesspool of moral relativists who despise sports.
Will we see any of the old staff return with the new head coach?
The Current Baylor Coach was a successful HS coach in Texas, so the "jumP' point is moot in my opinion.
My concern with the process is that we have NO PROFESSIONALS on this committee. The three guys from the Advisory board equally blew the Shoop and Wilson hiring, so why are we running things through them? Gregory is a Campbell puppet. Gregory is with an Executive search company, I trust that we are NOT paying him! Tellier, nice guy, but BAD coach. His record speaks volumes. How happy was he when both Shoop and Norries failed? He's the only one that survived with a job!
We know what we're getting with Margraff and Gilmore, we should be fine with that. Pick one and move on! We'll all be happy!
New Head Coaches usually retain 1 member of the old staff, for continuity purposes. I pray that Nugai and Marino just move on their own...
What will happen with the support staff? My son has told me there are secretaries, student employees, and graduate assistants in the football staff will they be let go as well?
Telliermwas a fine coach but not a great recruiter.
The Bosco- Bergen game at Giants stadium will be the national high school game of the week.
You want to see great football and great coaching go see this game. You will see great coordinators on both sides of the ball. Bergen Catholic will be led by Nick Gersts brother and a high powered offense against the # 1 football team in the country with 10 D1 prospects
You will never get a D1 collegiate coach who has been around this type of talent at this competitive level to come to Columbia unless Columbia wants to pay 7 figures. Columbia is not a stepping stone for any great football coaching mind at the collegiate level. Lets be real
There is no risk with Toals recruiting and coaching resume. He is surrounded by an outstanding football staff which is what took Wilson down
Be Bold Columbia go get TOAL...there will be a buzz here that will change things overnite
Hey 3:32 ex-player, I'm not nitpicking, I'm laughing because we need to lighten things up a little and your fingers hit the wrong keys, so you wrote what are the "frieria" for selecting the coach instead of what are the "criteria."
I'm really laughing because I think you got it right....our coach selectons in the past have been done by the fry cooks at "frierias" like El Pollo Loco and Kentucky Fried Chicken instead of knowledgeable football people.
Agree with last post.
You will get big time support from all the local programs in the entire metropolitan New York area and nationwide.You want to see great recruiting. This will make it happen. You want to see an exceptional staff of coordinators this will make it happen
To all the cynics at Columbia you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. Lets make history together
Go Lions
If CU ends up with a high school coach, just cancel next season or, even better, move to DIII so current players can transfer without penalty.
Talk about sending the wrong message!!
I really wish the homers would let the Toal thing go. Catholic High Schools recruit across multiple states and there are haves and have nots among them. They also compete against public schools who cannot recruit. I don't know Toal personally and have nothing against him. However he has no qualifications to be a head coach at the Div 1 level. Let him prove himself at DIII first mylitycFinally, at last years Pennsylvania AAAA championship, a public school from Pittsburgh came east and literally beat the snot out of a Philly catholic league champion that had played the Bergen's and the Bosco's
competatively during the year!
Don Bosco VS. AAAA public school from Pittsburgh..Pretty funny...That would be over in 1 Quarter. Stay with the Steelers they looked good last nite.
You have no idea the level of football these kids play at.
Good luck Columbia
The Toal bandwagon is a joke. If he could coach college football he would be doing it by now rather than recruiting kids to play against public schools that don't recruit. HS coaches overwhelmingly fail in college. End of story.
There are reasons to be in favor of Toal and reasons to have reservations, but at least don't talk factual nonsense. Toal has won championships coaching urban public, suburban public and a Catholic school, Bosco is the first and only Catholic school at which he's coached. And, Bosco stank before he came 9 years ago. Lastly, Bosco is the # 1 team in the country, not New Jersey, not the Northeast, but the country. Bosco has beaten leading public and private school from CA, FL and OH. For a Northeast school, which has no spring practice, that is simply unheard of.
Dr.V
Unless I'm mistaken, the Lions did not run David Cho to the outside until the last quarter of the last game of his senior year when he made at least two very nice runs against Brown. He also kept a key drive going by gaining yardage on a busted play. Terrific coming out party, but why did it take so long?
It puzzles me why Tellier and Murphy would even consider a high school coach.For those that are pushing for Toal,yes, it will put a feather in his cap and look good on his resume,but seriously doubt it will impress the team or their parents.They have already had high school coaches. It's time to move up to the college level. (which they were recruited for).If the powers that be have learned anything ... I certainally hope they realize after this season they need to move forward and not backward.It would be very disappointing and unfair to the team if they do not pick a highly regarded and experienced college coach to fill this position.Get with it people,would you rather these kids play for someone who had succes with a HS team AND NO COLLEGE EXPERIENCE????!!!! Or someone who knows college football, has coached on that level and had success with his teams???? Also why hasn't anyone mentioned an NFL coach that may not have made it in that league, why couldn't one of them step down to a college coaching position? To me, Columbia would be better off with a guy like that than a guy coming from high school.
Toal is about 58. He has been coaching high school all his life. If he wanted a college career he could have become an assistant and worked his way up years ago. Hard to believe he wants the Columbia job.
I attended a Catholic boys school that was a dominant football power in my home state. We were able to recruit players from anywhere in our region; public high schools didn't have that flexibility. The coach did not worry about admissions standards and the players did not worry about their academics. Our coach left to become an assistant at our football power state university; he lasted a year or two.
As someone who has worked in admissions, I can say the odds that Toal or any hs coach can move to one of the five most selective colleges in the country and immediately recruit successfully using the AI are one in one hundred thousand. That he can recruit and retain a staff of college coaches is also unlikely. Further, I agree it would send entirely the wrong message to select a high school coach. The whole idea is a non-starter.
Gilmore became a head coach in 2004. Here are his results against all Ivy opponents:
vs. Brown
2006: Won 35-30
2007: Won 48-37
2008: Won 41-34
2009: Lost 34-31
2010: Won 17-13
2011: Lost 20-13
(4-2 overall)
vs. Dartmouth
2004: Won 24-0
2005: Won 28-16
2006: Won 24-21 (OT)
2007: Won 41-17
2008: Won 44-26
2009: Won 34-14
2010: Lost 27-19
2011: Won 25-17
(7-1 overall)
vs. Harvard
2004: Lost 35-0
2005: Lost 31-21
2006: Lost 31-14
2007: Won 31-28
2008: Lost 25-24
2009: Won 27-20
2010: Lost 34-6
2011: Won 30-22
(3-5 overall)
vs. Yale
2005: Won 22-19
2007: Lost 38-17
2008: Lost 31-28
(1-2 overall)
Against all Ivies: 15-10
Here is the caveat against Gilmore:
He is a Penn guy. Is it really in Columbia's best interest to hire someone who may be conflicted about going up against his alma mater in full force?
See Armond Hill and Bob Shoop.
I am not endorsing or voting against Gilmore, but it's only fair to note that Lou Little was a Penn grad too!
I hope the hiring committee turns out collectively to be smarter than some of the posts here recently. Success at being a head coach will be determined by at least 5 DIFFERENT factors. That's why there are no perfect candidates. Even VERY successful coaches at one level can fail at a different level (Weis at N.D., Holtz in the pros). Each candidate has his positives and negatives. The big trick is to try and figure out how to evaluate those apples and oranges with respect to each candidate to come up with the best one. We seem to be fastening on some one factor and deciding that candidate x can't be the one (Gilmore is a Penn alum; Toal has only coached in h.s. etc.).
-Dr.V
I like the comment sbout going backwards for the program with TOAL. Any further backwards there is no football program. All these wonderful collegiate coaches you've had for last 60 years in the the great Ivy league quality of football.
At least you guys have a blog. Most of the comments match the program.
Go watch TOAL and his boys against Bergen Catholic in front of 20,000 at Giants stadium and then you will see great football and great support.
Dream a little and you have a coach that controls the entire metropolitan area for recruiting and has a solid staff
Think out of the box Columbia
I look at Harvard in football and now in basketball (where it recently defeated 20th ranked FSU), and wonder why CU is so steadfast in continuing on its well worn path.
CU football will turn around when a few alumni band together and take control of the process. The formula for success is not complicated. Marshaling the will for real change appears far more challenging.
My greatest fear is CU has set its sights on "competitive" while the rest of the league has targeted "championship." Princeton is the only other program where .500 is considered a move in the right direction.
CU doesn't have the history of institutional success to select a high school coach and make it stick as an indication of seriousness.
I like the notion of Tressel. He built a IAA program into a national winner, and restored things at OSU. His sole problem with the NCAA has been with hyper active external influences non existent here. I don't see it happening but I like the thought.
The young men in the program deserve a taste of success.
Dr.V, I understand what you are saying, Gilmore being a Penn grad would have no affect on where his loyalties would lie if he were to coach at Columbia.I don't however understand why you would think that a high school coach with a good record would be a better fit that that of a college guy with success at a previous school. Experience and a winning record should play a big part in the decision making.Why would you risk experience over a good high school record?
To the 8:30 post,like your take on Tressel, so would the team!The problem is,people don't seem to take the idea of Tressel serious.Have any ideas how we could make that happen?
Toal is 58 years old with no college experience. Someone mentioned the Baylor coach came from HS. True, but he left HS coaching as a young man and served as an assistant for Mike Leach for three years. Leach is one of the best football minds in the country. After his apprenticeship Briles took over at U.Houston and turned their program around. Now he's doing the same at Baylor. A 58-year old with no history in college is not likely to succeed. HS coaches who do make the jump typically work as assistants first. The ones I know of who made the big jump -- Gerry Faust and Todd Dodge -- failed.
I don't know if Toal will succeed at Columbia but I do know a few things that make him a great candidate despite the "high school" label:
1) Columbia's key problem year after year, (at least since the talent level improved over the last decade), is PREPAREDNESS. This team is just so clearly not prepared for a lot of key situations and even run of the mill plays. A Greg Toal team would NEVER be unprepared. His practices are legendary.
2) Columbia is not Notre Dame. Don't you guys think Faust is an unfair example considering the fact that CU is just a little less of a pressure cooker than the Golden Dome?
3) Toal will bring 2-3 high school All American recruits with him right away and maybe some more the year or two after that. Doing so will boost our recruiting class levels while he learns the ins and outs of the AI, if he even needs to learn more than he already might.
Kevin, I have to take issue with your characterizing Navarro as "bombing out" in the Ivy League. In four years, he took Columbia from the dumps to Ivy favorites. The year after his 6-3 season, the Daily News picked Columbia to win the title. Several players, after the season, took responsibility for the disappointing 3-6, and Frank lost his passion for Columbia and New York for a handful of reasons. He turned the program around, however briefly, with a fraction of the administrative support present now. That's not really bombing out.
His years are an interesting case study for CU football. Navarro's success at Williams and Wabash show that he knew his x's and o's. His recruiting was quite good: Don Jackson, Paul Kaliades, Charley Johnson, George Starke, Jesse Parks, Frank Dermody, John Sefcik, Max McKenzie, and Mike Telep are names that come to my aged mind and there are more. Not too shabby. He got CU beyond competitiveness to a 6-3 record, with high hopes for the following season. Then it fell apart. Quickly.
Rarely if ever a highschool all-american chooses an Ivy over a big-time BCS school. Can anyone name any? If you think guys would turn down a Michigan, Ohio St, Fla, LSU, Bama to follow Toal to Columbia your smoking something. You Jersey dads need to wake up and smell the coffee. Your not only gonna havta recruit at CU you're gonna havta do it with the AI and a select pool of talent that seven other Ivy league schools will be hard after. Don't bring me a highschool coach that has never done this. The Ivy league pool is nationwide but it is not a huge pool of talent. Recuiting against the top dogs of the Ivy league is what Columbia has to overcome to become competetive. Stop with this Toal lovefest.
dabull, i agree with you, but to be fair, the number 5 tight end (from the same high school as nico papas) in the county 2 years ago decommitted from stanford to go to harvard.
Do you agree that's a rarity? By the way, how's this kid doing at Harvard? Who did his #5 ranking? Didn't posters here claim Pappas was one of the top fullbacks rated coming out of highschool? Show me video on a recruit against stiff competition where he faces challenges and I can tell you if he can play. I see a lot of guys get accolades because they play on loaded teams that crush average competition and they put up great numbers.
That Harvard TE then quit football, so something is going on there.
I'm just an amateur observer (no wisecracks, please). Maybe I'm just getting a mental overload from the varying opinions here-- Go outside the box and hire a h.s. coach; hire an Ivy Leaguer; get Jim Tressel; get a Johns Hopkins lifer; Gilmore's a Penn guy and will be a secret agent for Bagnoli, etc., etc.--and I just got a mental flash that maybe all these mood swings are caused by a distrust of the ability of the AD, her aides and the search committee to make a good selection. I hope they do have the ability to discern better than what's occurred before.
Besides that, unfortunately, I think even more is needed. Doesn't any successful coach need first-rate assistants? Will we pay for them? Or continue with too many mediocre assts and guys who are recent graduate assistants?
Stop already with the high school coaches, here's an excerpt from an interview:
DMurphy: "Coach whats your plan for national recruiting?"
HScoache response: "ummmmm"
DMurphy: "coach whats your plan for a staff?
HScoach response: "ummmmmm"
Get it guys?
and for the rest on the Gilmore bandwagon, if you thought Wilson was too tough on the kids, Gilmore is 10 times that. So buckle up softies, and prepare to get rubbed the WRONG way.
Hire a proven coach (doesnt have to be a head coach), with excellent recruiting ties, and a background of assistant coaches he has worked with.
To Mental Overload;
I too am surprised and not just by the varied opinions but how many of them are similar to past decisions.
After decades of futility, I expected unanimity on change in direction in coaching profile.
High school players are pretty well segmented by the time Ivy recruiting gets serious. The Rivals 3 star and above players are off the table. CU needs a coach who can consistently beat his peer group on the national circuit for the kids looking at the high academic schools.
I like what Amaker is doing for Harvard basketball. This is not rocket science. Get a high visibility guy with a national reputation (which presupposes some success).
All the coaches mentioned here are fine individuals but CU needs some new thinking or, at least, the ability to look at a peer and do the same thing.
Tressel fits the job requirements for me. Moreover, I view hiring a guy with some baggage as far less odious than asking for another reduction in AI in order to get a few recruits in.
The case can be made that the other Ivy football programs are moving up faster than CU is treading water. Cornell is going to be very hard to beat as I predict their QB to develop into a legitimate pro prospect. Dartmouth seems to have solid administrative and financial support. CU could improve (as it did with Wilson), but not have the wins to support it without a major move right now.
Any coach coming in has to make a mental adjustment to the team in my opinion. When the team thought it may win, they played well. When they didn't believe thay were to win, there was no enthusiasm (They thought and should have beaten Penn, played well. Thought Princeton was a pushover and had no enthusiasm and played poorly). Two toally different teams showed up during the season. Find a coach who also can motivate Ivy student athletes weekly and wins will come.
"The idea behind Year Zero is that all culture and traditions...must be...discarded and a new...culture must replace it, starting from scratch. All history...before Year Zero is...irrelevant, as it will be...replaced from the ground up."
Jim Tressel = Year Zero
The supporters of Gilmore and Margraff, with their "good fit" and "familiarity with Ivy-type recruits" make it sound as if CU football just needs a little "fine tuning", just one last "tile in the mosaic". Maybe they're right. Maybe what we need is a guy from Worcester who has zero chance of recruiting anybody, ANYBODY, away from Harvard or better yet, a guy who, year in year out, strikes terror in the hearts of Muhlenberg College football fans. We're standing up to our asses in the rubble of 50 plus years of disaster and we're discussing the relative merits of guys who will be deemed geniuses if they "catapult" the Lions in five or six years into a tie for fourth place.
Jim Tressel = Year Zero
I think you're dreaming to think Jim Tressel would even WANT this job. Let's be realistic people.
Is the Year Zero comparison an endorsement for Tressel? Hard to tell since we are trying to discard history here. LOL
The only reason to expect Tressel to do an Ivy program is the need for rehabilitation. What easier place than one with none of the usual temptations?
I don't think this will happen but I do like the thought...much better than any high school guy.
Dabull, don't be so sure about Tressel not wanting to come to Columbia. I've heard taht he would like a smaller school, where he can make a new start.I have also heard he wants to stay in Ohio, but if the offer is right(I am not speaking dollars)but control of his team and the football program, who knows...stranger things have happened.Our young men would be like sponges, sucking up all he has to offer. A new beginning for them. A new beginning for him.
I don't think that any of the people touting Tressel EXPECT him to come to CU. However, they would at least like someone to contact him. He's a perfect example of the sort of "special situation" that the dire state of CU football demands. There are probably other special situations out there that, one hopes, an imaginative, professional search would discover. Anyway, what the Hell is there to lose? So somebody Photoshop Tressel shaking hands with Roar-ee.
Let's put Tressel in perspective.
Some years ago, CU requested and received permission to drop its AI standards to admit a few extra football recruits. Hiring a coach whose only NCAA problems revolve around boosters is far less offensive to the ideals of the school. (Objective observation here could say that the NCAA recognized this problem has become almost uncontrollable when it adopted the notion of paying scholarship athletes.)
Tressel probably has every high school coach in the States of PA and OH on speed dial. Others in the States of Texas and CA are in his rolodex. The recruiting landscape shifts to NYC. (Finally, that annoying complaint about NYC being a disadvantage will stop.)
There is zero risk on whether he can build a program. Youngstown and OH prove that.
The AD can sleep at night knowing her words of Athletic Excellence have been backed up with action. If Tressel can't get it done, it can't be done.
Concerns about assistant pay are solved, as well. Guys will flock to CU to get a stint with him. Money will not be an issue.
OH is probably paying or has paid him so much that any pay he receives from CU will be almost irrelevant (he is working for free right now).
What does he get? Time out of the cesspool known as major college football. It may be the top of the totem pole, but the pressures are enormous. Also, I don't subscribe to the notion that CU is a bad place for a coach. Sure we don't win much, but this is as attractive an institution as there is any place.
Contact him? How about flying to Indianapolis and camping out at practice for an opportunity to talk to him!
If that seems like desperation, I can only ask what desperation looks like if not us? Let's get this thing turned around.
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